For the best captain I have seen at Warrington it would be the"Old Fox" - Harry Bath.



For my own club it would be an ex Warrington player Roy Francis.

Was Currie the captain of the English schoolboys or academy teams at some point? Or did I imagine that?

John Bateman was the captain of the England Academy team v Australia that Ben Currie played in which I attended at Leigh Sports Village.



Currie is a year younger than Bateman, so there could have been subsequent games that he captained? .

Out of interest, in the modern British game (and not just Wire), can anyone name a player who comes across as a natural leader, in the way we seem to be recalling the likes of Sinfield or Farrell were?



Personally, I can't. Perhaps Roby at a push, but that's more down to the length of his career and the subsequent success he has had.



Maybe the lack of natural leaders in the modern game is another indicator of how sterile and formulaic the game now is, compared to previous eras, and that the real leadership is provided by the coach and his assistants, via walkie talkies around the pitch - I mean its blatantly obvious that the job of the water carriers isn't just to carry water onto the pitch?



So, perhaps the idea of a 'captain' is now an outdated one and the real on pitch leader is actually sat in the stands, providing constant guidance, via his staff?

This is the difference between simple management, as opposed to leadership though, isn't it? A great manager is one who knows the technical details to a high degree and gets his staff to execute what they've been taught/shown, to maintain a high standard (which in sport is consistently winning). Leadership is different in that you need to create change outside the norm. For example, you're behind on the scoreboard after an unfair decision to award a try to the other team. The team now needs to raise a gear and overcome adversity to gat back in front. A manager in the stands can't just tell people to do that, you need a leader on the field who goes out there and shows how it's done, putting their body on the line, making bigger hits, an extra strong run, a last ditch try-saver when they're out on their feet. Inspiring the troops to follow their lead.



It's the interesting the point you make about whether we see much of that in the modern game though, because do we see much of that in society as a whole? Without drifting into politics, take a look at current global issues like the pandemic and climate change. We have a lot of talkers telling us what we should be doing, without leading by example and doing anything themselves. In the pandemic we saw top scientific experts, celebrities and politicians telling us to lock down, wear masks etc for we are 'Covidiots', yet they themselves get caught breaking the rules. With climate change we've got all these nature-lovers and film stars telling us we are at "one-minute to midnight" and need to change our energy consumption drastically. Not seen any of them give up their own luxury houses, nice cars or holidays in the sun though!

So yes, maybe there aren't many modern day 'leaders' for us all to be inspired by.

Those stats are a damning indictment. That '13 GF. A disgrace we lost that, after being 16-2 ahead. The moment Monaghan got injured, our players just stood, individually. Tomkins went and spoke to virtually everyone of his side. They neve looked back, from that moment on. The most frustrating game of my watching lifetime. We were like the proverbial rabbits in headlights

I reckon losing Ratchford as well might have made a bit of a difference.

I can't remember who ended up at FB and Wing. Very frustrating.

We should've been able to cope with the loss of a winger, when we had a 14 point lead.

Losing Ratchford was the final nail in the coffin. The game was gone, bar miracles, by then. We were literally"dead men walking"



I too, can't remember who filled those positions. Didn't we have 4 forwards on the bench?

I seem to remember Ratchford being more significant as a loss than Monaghan. But then my coping strategy after the game may have affected my recollection. You see, I was very, very drunk.

The mind plays tricks Lefty. We were winning 16-12 in the 50th minute when Ratchford got injured ... so the game was far from gone. We did indeed have 4 forwards on the bench. Losing two outside backs with half and hour to go is a tough ask in my book.

True. We did still have the lead when Ratchford got injured, but we were shell shocked at half time, never mind the second half, THAT'S where we missed a Gregory/Sinfield/Farrell/Edwards.



Bar Morley's obvious qualities, he always struck me as someone who was more suited to improving himself, week on week, rather than his team. Maybe he had his own set of very high standards, and thought everyone was as driven as him. Sadly, individuals aren't, and they needed that on-field leadership.



Back on thread, rather than that one match, maybe the game was spoiled (in a nice way) by having such TEAM leaders as I mentioned earlier. I say this as a lifelong Manchester City fan. Vincent Kompany embodied such qualities, but he left two and a half years ago, and the captaincy has been passed around through various hands, since. Despite City still winning stuff, I can see the lack of a LEADER is showing. Proper leaders are few and far between.



As I said earlier in the thread, we currently have a team of varying abilities. There's no one that's [ia leader of men. [/i

Ratchford being selected ahead of a fully fit brett Hodgson was one of the main reasons we lost that grand final and I still haven't forgiven Smith for it!

I suppose we've drifted a bit from the original thread.



Cooper is the only established member of the squad I can think of that is fairly cool-headed and unflappable. My only reservation would be the question of why he hasn't been selected as leader in the past. It always seemed to be Ratchford who took over when Hughes or Hill were off the field. I guess we don't know the players like the coaches do, so maybe Powell just needs a bit of time working with them in pre-season before deciding who will get the role.



Who was Shenton's vice-captain at Cas? McShane? Since Powell himself was a half-back, maybe he'll prefer a 'little general' like Widdop who will have the responsibility of guiding the troops round the park.

We are tending to pick successful captains of successful clubs. In reality there will have been loads of good captains (and Coaches) at clubs who have been less successful. Some blokes just inspire, encourage, are positive and are a pleasure to play with. It is the joy of the game. Wire will have had plenty of good 'uns.

Captains for me are players who both the standard for the rest of the team and hold other to account for falling below that. Farrell and Sculthorpe could do almost every aspect of the game better than their peers, including negotiating with referees and engaging in ‘lively debate’ with fist-wielding Australians.



Morley had an aura, he was just so strong both mentally and physically, but he couldn’t kick a winning drop goal from 40 yards like the above. Cameron Smith had the master manipulator role to a tee, he was almost player coach at times.



But, I would have to pick either Scully or Farrell. Genuine top class players and great leaders

So as I started this thread I thought I'd make a few observations.



There are - and have been - very few top notch captains. I don't want to use the word outstanding because by its very definition it lends itself to reducing the field to a few.



Farrell and Sinfield in recent times, maybe Sculthorpe

Gregory and Edwardes earlier, and then the likes of Bath, Murphy. (Maybe this is just reflective of the demographic).



So when posters decry a particular player who happens to be captain I don't think it's particularly helpful.

Top notch captains are few and far between and they are quite often surrounded a core of top class performers who undoubtedly have an input.



I don't think many teams - including Warrington - have that.



I'd love to ask DP for his take on this.

I think we are in this position as a number of posters have commented that 1) we had a captain that clearly lost his composure under pressure and his performances dipped whilst shouldering the responsibility and 2) the present incumbent is not a good enough player to be guaranteed a place in the squad based on all round ability. 3) We seem to lack an on field presence when we are up against it. I don't think we are asking for a world beater like Farrell or Sinfield but an improvement on the current situation.



At the firework event Hughes proclaimed getting the '13' shirt would be no big deal for him and he can play in that position easily. I think he may be in for a surprise assuming his place in the side like that especially as we have just signed a loose forward. I think that is half our problem that certain players consider their places as a given.

Fair points Wires71.

It's going to be interesting to see how DP plays it.

A couple I remember from the early days of Super League are Steve Carter at Widnes and Adrian Vowles at Cas.



Carter came over to Widnes in their first season back in Super League, he had been a one-club man and club legend at Penrith Panthers and was past his best as a player but he had a great presence as a formidable 'hard man' who naturally commanded respect but also a good bloke who supported his teammates and especially helped some inexperienced players who had come from the Championship (NFP as it was then) to their first year as full time pros. Widnes were good that year and after Carter retired through injury they fell apart quickly.



Vowles was a good player as well as captain and he really elevated Cas from being a team that had been struggling against relegation to a game away from the Grand Final within a couple of years, and he won Man of Steel. He was a big leader at Leeds and Wakefield too - you could see he could command a dressing room at a bigger club as well as keep a team in a relegation battle together.



From around that era there were a couple of captains in the 'poophousery' mould, the opposite of the positive 'good blokes' type like Carter and Vowles. Graeme Bradley in the early years of Bradford Bulls was effectively their captain although Robbie Paul had the armband for marketing reasons and was better to put in front of the media. Bradley was a first class poophouse, grumpy, cynical, provocateur type that opponents hated and he used to get on the case of his own players too but he seemed to motivate rather than alienate his own dressing room.



The other one like this didn't play in SL over here, but was a significant player down under: Matthew Ridge who was NZ captain in the 90s. He was a poophouse like Bradley in that he never shut up and liked sledging and provoking opponents, but he was an another who set incredible standards for psychological toughness and was also the 'coach on the field' type of captain, he used to sit behind the line at fullback and shout instructions organising their defensive structure from behind. Ridge was great at firing up his teams because he was so hyper-competitive and always wanting a battle. He wasn't intimidated by big name Aussies and used to tell them they were poop and dare them to take him on.



Not in the same category of great leaders as those, but a slightly underrated one from Wire was Simon Gillies when he was with us for one season. He was past his best as a player and probably a bit of a disappointment from a playing contribution but he seemed to be well respected and he was a good communicator, which we haven't had very often.

Gillies???? Behave. If your idea of leadership is a completely ineffectual, headless chicken who is busy doing nothing with terrible hair, then yes. The Boris Johnson of RL.

Best captain I've seen would be mike Gregory which has been mentioned earlier I think sinfield and sculthorpe after him were two great captains and also Farrell and Roby. Morley would be our best recent captain.



Main attribute for a captain in my eyes is their ability to influence a game all of the above have been the deciding factor in so many games being the difference in a win or loss. Second to that is something we shouldn't see is holding players accountable in the dressing room if they're not putting in the work in training and set the standards for off field behaviour.

I think you almost want a Captain to be self appointed. Someone that is clearly a leader and takes control without ever being appointed. All the great captains that have been mentioned would fit this mould



I always thought Sinfield was a very good reliable player but not in the Farrell/Sculthorpe category. What I’ve seen of him over the last couple of years shows what he would have been like as Captain through the successful years at Leeds and makes it very clear that he is a truly great leader.

For Sinfield it's almost as if his role in the Leeds team was firstly captain then as a player.

I think he was 13 before moving to the halves.

I certainly wouldn't rate him in the top draw of halves, but I would rate him as a captain.



Obviously his fund raising over the last 2 years have been absolutely phenomenal and quite rightly he comes out of this with massive plaudits (not that he did it for personal fame/fortune).

I think it's also worthwhile at this point giving a big rap to the BBC who have promoted his efforts (By comparison I know of others without media backing that have done similar or more extreme feats but only raised a tenth of the amount Kev has, but it doesnt make their efforts any less laudable).

Sinfield comes across exceptionally well on TV - as does the sport of Rugby League - and his love for Rob Burrow is one to be admired.

Yes, Sinfield as a captain is right up there.

As our captain been named for next season yet.

Not yet announced.